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deathteam15
Question Why does Arwen become mortal when she stays behind? / Dec 13th, 2010, 05:06 PM Old   #1

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Hello, I was just wondering why Arwen becomes mortal after most of the other elves of Imladris go to Aman? Do Legolas and other elves that stayed behind become mortal, such as Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir?

Thanks
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Gray
Default Dec 13th, 2010, 07:14 PM Old   #2

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No, I think that she was expected to die of greif after Aragorn passed, so she may as well have been mortal.
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Arvedui
Default Dec 13th, 2010, 08:36 PM Old   #3
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Arwen was one of the Peredhil, [Sindarin half-elven] meaning she is of the race of both Elves and Men just as her father Elrond and Uncle Elros. All of the Peredhil are presented with a choice by the Valar- to be mortal and live amongst the race of men or to remain an immortal amongst the firstborn. Since Arwen chose the former, she was not forced to leave ME with the remainder or her kin.

The exodus to Valinor is a "requirement," so to speak that the Valar set upon all High Elves;those of Noldorin and Teleri descent. The High Elves do not encompass Legolas' kin, which for the greater part were Avari- Elves that had not ever seen the light of the Two Trees.

To answer your other question, yes, Elladan and Elrohir had to make the same choice as Arwen. Legolas was not presented with a choice at all. Elves of his kindred remained immortal, though experienced a sort of fading once they grew extremely weary of life.


Last edited by Arvedui: Dec 13th, 2010 at 08:43 PM.
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deathteam15
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 03:01 AM Old   #4

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Thank you very much, I understand now. I always wondered what the difference to an elf being half-elven or full was.
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RangerStryder
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 03:45 AM Old   #5

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I just want to add some stuff to what already been said.


Quote: Originally Posted by deathteam15 View Post
Hello, I was just wondering why Arwen becomes mortal after most of the other elves of Imladris go to Aman? Do Legolas and other elves that stayed behind become mortal, such as Arwen's brothers Elladan and Elrohir?
In the 3rd Age, there are only 3 Elves who have the capability to choose (between becoming mortal or to stay as Elves), and they are the children of Elrond. The Elves who stayed in Middle-earth will still be Elves until the end of time.

Legolas on the other hand went into Aman with his bestfriend Gimli.

Elrohir and Elladan might stayed (we pressume) for there is no 'official' record that they sailed westward.




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deathteam15
Question Dec 14th, 2010, 10:54 AM Old   #6

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OK thanks, but I though that Elrond chose to be immortal, and Elros chose to be mortal? So shouldn't Elrong and his sons/daughter be immortal? Thanks
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RangerStryder
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 11:47 AM Old   #7

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Quote: Originally Posted by deathteam15 View Post
OK thanks, but I though that Elrond chose to be immortal, and Elros chose to be mortal? So shouldn't Elrong and his sons/daughter be immortal? Thanks



Because of the deed of Earendil and Elwing (the parents of Elrond and Elros in the 1st Age), they were given the gift to be counted either as a Man or an Elf, and this gift runs to their descendants (as long you are an Elf).

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The Vala Manwe decreed that Earendil and Elwing, as well as Elrond and Elros and their descendants, should have the choice whether to be counted among Elves or Men.
In the 2nd Age, Elrond's choice is to be with the Elves while Elros becomes a mortal (sadly the children of Elros didnt get the right to choose).

In the 3rd Age, Elrond married Celebrian and then had 3 children. Arwen used her option to be counted as a mortal.




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deathteam15
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 01:04 PM Old   #8

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Ahhh ok it all makes sense now, so Elrond didn't have to leave middle earth to become immortal, but Arwen did? If so, is there any reason why Elrond didn't stay behind with Arwen, or was it just that once she died, he wouldn't have anyone in middle earth? Thanks
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RangerStryder
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 04:23 PM Old   #9

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Quote: Originally Posted by deathteam15 View Post
Ahhh ok it all makes sense now, so Elrond didn't have to leave middle earth to become immortal, but Arwen did?
No. Arwen (even if she didnt met Aragorn) is already an Elf since birth (both parents are Elf) therefore she was born immortal.

Quote: Originally Posted by deathteam15 View Post
If so, is there any reason why Elrond didn't stay behind with Arwen, or was it just that once she died, he wouldn't have anyone in middle earth?
Elrond is already tired of Middle-earth affairs, Sauron is dead, and his daughter already made her choice.

I think Elrond is now ready to be with his wife again in Valinor....and not to baby-sit his grandchildren in Middle-earth.

If Elrond stayed in Middle-earth until the 4th Age then he will have the company of Celeborn (who move from Lothlorien to Rivendell) and his two sons.

The time difference of Elrond sailing westward and the time that Arwen died in the 4th Age = 120+ years.




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Ilaras of The Dunedain
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 05:32 PM Old   #10

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Celeborn moved to Rivendell? Did not know that... I should have

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deathteam15
Post Dec 14th, 2010, 05:43 PM Old   #11

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Quote: Originally Posted by Ilaras of The Dunedain View Post
Celeborn moved to Rivendell? Did not know that... I should have
He grew weary of ME after Galadriel left, so he moved. He probably eventually went over the sea.
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The snowking
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 06:33 PM Old   #12

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Quote: Originally Posted by Arvedui View Post

To answer your other question, yes, Elladan and Elrohir had to make the same choice as Arwen. Legolas was not presented with a choice at all. Elves of his kindred remained immortal, though experienced a sort of fading once they grew extremely weary of life.
But Legolas went to Aman with Gimli. Is that just a fluke? Or are Sindar and Silvan able to sail west as well?

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Arvedui
Default Dec 14th, 2010, 10:16 PM Old   #13
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I suppose there is no restriction on elves sailing West. Gimli only made it under special request from Galadriel.

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Yams In a can
Default Dec 18th, 2010, 10:05 PM Old   #14
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I doubt it. The Silvian/Sindar Elves were just the elves who refused to go earlier (in the case of near 10,000 years ago ). They may have refused then, but I believed that the offer still/always stood.

The only instance I believe of Elves not being able to return/go to Valinor is the Noldor, who defied the Valar and even killed many Telari.

If anything, I would say Elladan and Elrohir went to Valinor. They had a very strong connection with their mother (Celebrian), as shown she was tortured by the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and rescued by them, as well as the Sons constantly hunting down Orcs to avenge their mother.

Elrond would have not wanted to see his daughter perish, so he left. He was also a "High Elf" in some sense.

And no, the Silvian and Sindar Elves (like Legolas) do not become mortal. I think they get weary just perish, but they will simply return to Valinor (but not be allowed to return Middle Earth).

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