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Arvedui
Default Gondor -> The Byzantine Empire / Oct 23rd, 2010, 08:28 PM Old   #1
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Has anyone else made this connection?

It occurred to me just a few weeks ago. Gondor isn't like Greece, nor is it like Rome. Its best historical equivalent is Byzantium. Technology-wise they are nearly identical. And Considering the Byzantines were a state feeding off the remains of an older empire (Rome,) this compares well with the Kingdom of Gondor (also an empire during the middle millennium of the T.A) and its greater Numenorean past.




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Default Oct 24th, 2010, 03:56 AM Old   #2

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Seems you have right with this theory Arvendui !!!!!
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Yams In a can
Default Oct 24th, 2010, 01:25 PM Old   #3
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Yeah, Germans could be Angmar. The Ottomans could be Mordor. . To bad Minas Tirith got screwed so many times . Maybe it could be Osgiliath?

Nicely spotted Arvedui. I have always wanted to make some connection of Gondor, but couldn't :\.

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The snowking
Default Oct 24th, 2010, 09:06 PM Old   #4

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Or mabye Tolkein just wrote a good story without any (or little) historical basis, like he said he did.

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Default Oct 25th, 2010, 02:19 PM Old   #5

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We maybe don't know about the truth for this theme, but one morer time you were amazing Arvendui !!!
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Ilaras of The Dunedain
Default Oct 27th, 2010, 05:33 PM Old   #6

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Wow I like, never thought of this.

Byzantine seems more reasonable to compare to Gondor than the Roman Empire or Greece. Byzantine was on the edge of Europe, and Gondor is kinda on the edge of the free Middle Earth. And I never thought about how Gondor is what remains of the Arnor/Gondor dealio, and how Byzantine is what was left of the Roman Empire. Nice Arvedui!

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Edheldae
Default Oct 28th, 2010, 08:51 PM Old   #7

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Nice connection Arvedui. I think there are a number of relevant parallels but wouldn't overstate it too much. Tolkien pulled ideas from a lot of sources and he probably knew more about Byzantium than either of us.

To extend the analogy though:
- major city on primary trade routes that operated as a bulwark for the West = Minas Tirith / Constantinople
- close to the inflow of a major river = Anduin / Danube
- increasingly militarized noble class that develop their own armed retainer armies the ruler is dependent on
- heavy dependence on mercenaries and client kingdoms
- heavy dependence on trade and a great fleet
- struggle for kingdoms resources and focus between fleet and army
- getting pounded by successive waves of invaders
- splinter political units claiming to be the legitimate rulers and triggering civil war
- ceding large tracts of territory to new "barbarians"
- high number of ancient cultural sites built with lost technology
- pretensions to be the only remaining cultural successor of a larger empire, while ignoring a more rural neighbor who eventually rules
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Gray
Default Oct 29th, 2010, 12:56 AM Old   #8

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I didn't think Gondor had a particularly powerful fleet, cause it didn't seem like their port cities had much to stop the corsairs from invading.
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Yams In a can
Default Oct 29th, 2010, 08:59 PM Old   #9
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In its glory days, Gondor was a very powerful navy force. Gondor was at its weakest during the time of the War of the Ring...

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Edheldae
Default Oct 29th, 2010, 11:32 PM Old   #10

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Quote: Originally Posted by Gray View Post
I didn't think Gondor had a particularly powerful fleet, cause it didn't seem like their port cities had much to stop the corsairs from invading.
Neither did Byzantium towards their last few hundred years.
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Arvedui
Default Oct 30th, 2010, 12:34 AM Old   #11
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Its really sad what started happening after the 8th century. They lost like all of their territory...

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SSSSS
Default Oct 30th, 2010, 01:36 AM Old   #12

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And at 1204 it was captured by Crusaders and split into smaller states. I think something like that happened at the fall of Arnor.
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Yams In a can
Default Oct 30th, 2010, 09:44 AM Old   #13
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No, the fall of Arnor was The West Roman Empire and the Germans ^^.

When the Crusaders captured many of the Byzantine territories is more like the Civil War of Gondor.

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SSSSS
Default Oct 30th, 2010, 11:31 AM Old   #14

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I don't think so. Maybe it could be like the Haradrim invasions. What did you think Yams ?
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