Ungoliath...an Ainu? Yes or No? - Page 2 - Middle-earth Center Forums

courtmusic · courtmusic

Ungoliant. Glad someone brought her up because like Tom B she is an enigma. Could she have been a polar opposite of Tom? (Whoever he was maybe not so much a singer...).
As far as her strength/power when challenging Melkor doesn't Tolkien indicate Ungoliant was extremely strong at that point in time have recently ingested some strong objects (Extract of the trees and the water both creations which contained strong power/magic)?
It is also strange that the Balrogs could drive her back because I would assume Melkor would be stronger than his Balrogs. Perhaps a combination of Melkor and his Balrogs?

Sorry my post is akin to Superman Vs the incredible Hulk or a Lion fighting a grizzle bear

Arvedui · Arvedui

Ok... I have the explanation.

Melkor, as we all know, was the most powerful Ainu, thus the most powerful Valar. Valar are powerful than maiar, and always more powerful than men, elves, and dwarves, but how could the elf Fingolfin inflict so many wounds on Morgoth? By the time of the War of the Jewels in the First age, I think Morgoth is significantly weakened. With each monster or minion he creates, he puts part of himself in it. Sauron too, got weaker when he created and bred trolls, he gave part of himself away each time.

At the time of the destruction of the Trees, Melkor is still weakened somewhat, but he is still a vala. Because he is not as strong as his former self, he enlists the help of Ungoliant, and together they kill the trees. When Ungoliant does not receive the Silmarils from Morgoth she attacks him, and as courtmusic and I said, she is more powerful than usual at this point, because of what she had just ate. Also, Morgoth is significantly weakened from his years of spending his will and creating orcs and other beasts.
Morgoth requires the help of his Balrogs (several maiar,) to break free of Ungoliant.

"Balrogs" means two no doubt, but it could go anywhere from 10 more to 100 more.

Theoretically, by the time the Balrogs come to help Morgoth, its several maiar and one vala against a single super maia.

The circumstances add up, they write themselves down. They are screaming "UNGOLIANT
IS A MAIA!"

courtmusic · courtmusic

Quote:

The circumstances add up, they write themselves down. They are screaming "UNGOLIANT
IS A MAIA!"

If so as a Maia she must have been corrupted by Melkor. I gather that she might have existed before the Valor.

The Balrog of Morgoth · The Balrog of Morgoth

Quote: Originally Posted by Arvedui

"Balrogs" means two no doubt, but it could go anywhere from 10 more to 100 more.

I think that all of the balrogs of Morgoth came to assist him. This was about 1000. That's a lot of Balrogs. It tells us nothing of the strength of Ungoliant. Even in the height of his power, I doubt Morgoth could have stood a chance against an army that powerful.

As for the "Morgoth was weakened" theory, do you really think he could have lost so much strength that he went from most powerful Ainu all the way down to where you say he was?

Arvedui · Arvedui

He really didn't fall that far down... At this point in time he is probably (as a minimum,) a little more powerful than Sauron.

guilemaster · guilemaster

I think it is reasonable to say that Melkor was weakened. Of course, its also possible that Ungoliant was simply more powerful than Morgoth after consuming the trees. Thats not very likely, as he was a vala, so i think that Arvedui's theory on Melkor being weakened is reasonably well-grounded. That would also explain why Fingolfin is able to inflict wounds on him. The one thing i don't agree with is that he was similar in power to Sauron. I doubt that his first lieutenant was as strong as he is. Sauron is far weaker than Melkor, we can see this in the fact that he was defeated by a man, and the fact that he wasn't able to wipe the alliance army off the face of Middle Earth in one fell swoop. So i think that Melkor was still extremely powerful, if we are talking about the standards of men, but only very powerful if we compare him to the vala and the maia.

RunFree · RunFree

I always thot that ungoliant was a maia. She is not a valor as all of those that fell are accounted for (on other words melkor). Also, she was only strong enough to eat the light of the trees and leave. Even with her size and power increased by eating all that power, she could not take on the valor and had to run with melkor. Melkor losing to her is no big deal as he was relativly weak (in valor standards) since he corrupted so much.

Vamos · Vamos

Ungoliant is not a Maia, Tolkien quite specifically states she was from "before the world". So I'd put her with Tom Bombadil in the 'Other' category. When she’s mentioned it always seems that she’s a partner to Melkor, rather than one of his servants. Never does it say that she was enslaved by Melkor, only lied to.

As for her power she was able to shield him from the entire army of the Valar, and also extinguished all the light from the world – defeating Varda (one of the most powerful Valar. Don't forget Varda was able to read Melkor’s mind and was thus feared the most by him). Ungoliant is clearly a very powerful being, far more powerful than a standard Maia.

She also ensnared Morgoth (which the collective might of all the Valar, pre-Tulkas couldn’t do) before the Balrogs all intervened. There were many Balrogs, as Tolkien talks of them in masses during Melkor's defeat.

turin son of hurin · turin son of hurin

I think based on Ungoliath name as Gloom-weaver she was the creator of the "Timeless Void" that the Arda was created within...It is always said that Arda is surrounded by a darkness, "The timeless void" where Morgoth was banished until the Final Battle and thus this is more than likely where she originated.

As to how she could have had children, there were other evil spirits in the world which she could have mated with (or creation of Utumno) and brought about her lineage. Also, since she was on the scale of a Ainu she could possibly self-create after her destruction of the Trees and the Vats of Arda.

Just some thoughts and thanks for the brain food OP

Fracc · Fracc

Ungoliath as well as the Maiar and Vala were made before the world. The Ainur were the spirits who choose to enter at Iluvatars invitation after partaking in the music.
Vala and Maia are just names on the spirits that entered at this time. I belive Ungoliath is a spirit of equal power as the Vala but entered through the "back door" by going not directly, but via the darkness. Because Iluvatar made it all. Also every spirit including Ungoliath. And Iluvatar decided that Arda should have great evil and goodness both and let the Ainur enter to be a part of how his music played itself out as a physical manifestation.
Tolkiens number of Total Balrogs changes from 3 to over 1000, but as they were all fire maiar (Vardas) and the number of maiar werent that great, find a realistic number that fits your own theory. But they all came to his aid and I dont belive he would have attacked the trees without being at full power. She probably was on some kind of boost from the trees though or I dont belive she could have bullied and trapped Morgoth so easily. But power in Tolkiens reality does not equal strength. Tulkas is one of the six "weaker" vala, but still the strongest. And personally I think Gothmog was stronger than Sauron, but Sauron (like Morgoth) is a master in using power. To intimidate, get allies and so on. He also is a great strategist and as one of Aules maiar he has great skills in creating.

Arvedui	Jul 19th, 2009, 10:12 AM	#16
Posts: 2,589 Join Date: Oct 2008	Ok... I have the explanation. Melkor, as we all know, was the most powerful Ainu, thus the most powerful Valar. Valar are powerful than maiar, and always more powerful than men, elves, and dwarves, but how could the elf Fingolfin inflict so many wounds on Morgoth? By the time of the War of the Jewels in the First age, I think Morgoth is significantly weakened. With each monster or minion he creates, he puts part of himself in it. Sauron too, got weaker when he created and bred trolls, he gave part of himself away each time. At the time of the destruction of the Trees, Melkor is still weakened somewhat, but he is still a vala. Because he is not as strong as his former self, he enlists the help of Ungoliant, and together they kill the trees. When Ungoliant does not receive the Silmarils from Morgoth she attacks him, and as courtmusic and I said, she is more powerful than usual at this point, because of what she had just ate. Also, Morgoth is significantly weakened from his years of spending his will and creating orcs and other beasts. Morgoth requires the help of his Balrogs (several maiar,) to break free of Ungoliant. "Balrogs" means two no doubt, but it could go anywhere from 10 more to 100 more. Theoretically, by the time the Balrogs come to help Morgoth, its several maiar and one vala against a single super maia. The circumstances add up, they write themselves down. They are screaming "UNGOLIANT IS A MAIA!" Last edited by Arvedui: Jul 19th, 2009 at 10:33 AM.
	Quote

courtmusic	Jul 19th, 2009, 09:42 PM	#17
Posts: 50 Join Date: May 2009	Quote: The circumstances add up, they write themselves down. They are screaming "UNGOLIANT IS A MAIA!" If so as a Maia she must have been corrupted by Melkor. I gather that she might have existed before the Valor. Last edited by courtmusic: Jul 22nd, 2009 at 12:06 AM.
	Quote

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Why Ungoliath....why?	RangerStryder	Bag End	7	Jan 8th, 2009 01:52 AM

courtmusic	Jul 19th, 2009, 12:48 AM	#15
Posts: 50 Join Date: May 2009	Ungoliant. Glad someone brought her up because like Tom B she is an enigma. Could she have been a polar opposite of Tom? (Whoever he was maybe not so much a singer...). As far as her strength/power when challenging Melkor doesn't Tolkien indicate Ungoliant was extremely strong at that point in time have recently ingested some strong objects (Extract of the trees and the water both creations which contained strong power/magic)? It is also strange that the Balrogs could drive her back because I would assume Melkor would be stronger than his Balrogs. Perhaps a combination of Melkor and his Balrogs? Sorry my post is akin to Superman Vs the incredible Hulk or a Lion fighting a grizzle bear
	Quote

The Balrog of Morgoth	Jul 20th, 2009, 05:28 PM	#18
Posts: 184 Join Date: May 2009	Quote: Originally Posted by Arvedui "Balrogs" means two no doubt, but it could go anywhere from 10 more to 100 more. I think that all of the balrogs of Morgoth came to assist him. This was about 1000. That's a lot of Balrogs. It tells us nothing of the strength of Ungoliant. Even in the height of his power, I doubt Morgoth could have stood a chance against an army that powerful. As for the "Morgoth was weakened" theory, do you really think he could have lost so much strength that he went from most powerful Ainu all the way down to where you say he was?
	Quote

Arvedui	Jul 21st, 2009, 05:03 PM	#19
Posts: 2,589 Join Date: Oct 2008	He really didn't fall that far down... At this point in time he is probably (as a minimum,) a little more powerful than Sauron.
	Quote

guilemaster	Jul 27th, 2009, 11:58 AM	#20
Posts: 249 Join Date: Dec 2008	I think it is reasonable to say that Melkor was weakened. Of course, its also possible that Ungoliant was simply more powerful than Morgoth after consuming the trees. Thats not very likely, as he was a vala, so i think that Arvedui's theory on Melkor being weakened is reasonably well-grounded. That would also explain why Fingolfin is able to inflict wounds on him. The one thing i don't agree with is that he was similar in power to Sauron. I doubt that his first lieutenant was as strong as he is. Sauron is far weaker than Melkor, we can see this in the fact that he was defeated by a man, and the fact that he wasn't able to wipe the alliance army off the face of Middle Earth in one fell swoop. So i think that Melkor was still extremely powerful, if we are talking about the standards of men, but only very powerful if we compare him to the vala and the maia.
	Quote

RunFree	Jul 28th, 2009, 06:15 PM	#21
Posts: 14 Join Date: Jul 2009	I always thot that ungoliant was a maia. She is not a valor as all of those that fell are accounted for (on other words melkor). Also, she was only strong enough to eat the light of the trees and leave. Even with her size and power increased by eating all that power, she could not take on the valor and had to run with melkor. Melkor losing to her is no big deal as he was relativly weak (in valor standards) since he corrupted so much.
	Quote

Vamos	Jan 1st, 2012, 10:41 PM	#22
Posts: 2 Join Date: Jan 2012	Ungoliant is not a Maia, Tolkien quite specifically states she was from "before the world". So I'd put her with Tom Bombadil in the 'Other' category. When she’s mentioned it always seems that she’s a partner to Melkor, rather than one of his servants. Never does it say that she was enslaved by Melkor, only lied to. As for her power she was able to shield him from the entire army of the Valar, and also extinguished all the light from the world – defeating Varda (one of the most powerful Valar. Don't forget Varda was able to read Melkor’s mind and was thus feared the most by him). Ungoliant is clearly a very powerful being, far more powerful than a standard Maia. She also ensnared Morgoth (which the collective might of all the Valar, pre-Tulkas couldn’t do) before the Balrogs all intervened. There were many Balrogs, as Tolkien talks of them in masses during Melkor's defeat.
	Quote

turin son of hurin	Jan 11th, 2012, 06:03 PM	#23
Posts: 7 Join Date: Jan 2012	I think based on Ungoliath name as Gloom-weaver she was the creator of the "Timeless Void" that the Arda was created within...It is always said that Arda is surrounded by a darkness, "The timeless void" where Morgoth was banished until the Final Battle and thus this is more than likely where she originated. As to how she could have had children, there were other evil spirits in the world which she could have mated with (or creation of Utumno) and brought about her lineage. Also, since she was on the scale of a Ainu she could possibly self-create after her destruction of the Trees and the Vats of Arda. Just some thoughts and thanks for the brain food OP
	Quote

Fracc	Feb 16th, 2012, 04:47 PM	#24
Posts: 1 Join Date: Feb 2012	Ungoliath as well as the Maiar and Vala were made before the world. The Ainur were the spirits who choose to enter at Iluvatars invitation after partaking in the music. Vala and Maia are just names on the spirits that entered at this time. I belive Ungoliath is a spirit of equal power as the Vala but entered through the "back door" by going not directly, but via the darkness. Because Iluvatar made it all. Also every spirit including Ungoliath. And Iluvatar decided that Arda should have great evil and goodness both and let the Ainur enter to be a part of how his music played itself out as a physical manifestation. Tolkiens number of Total Balrogs changes from 3 to over 1000, but as they were all fire maiar (Vardas) and the number of maiar werent that great, find a realistic number that fits your own theory. But they all came to his aid and I dont belive he would have attacked the trees without being at full power. She probably was on some kind of boost from the trees though or I dont belive she could have bullied and trapped Morgoth so easily. But power in Tolkiens reality does not equal strength. Tulkas is one of the six "weaker" vala, but still the strongest. And personally I think Gothmog was stronger than Sauron, but Sauron (like Morgoth) is a master in using power. To intimidate, get allies and so on. He also is a great strategist and as one of Aules maiar he has great skills in creating.
	Quote