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Aercest
Default Jan 13th, 2012, 11:13 PM Old   #71

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Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
Are you saying the ancient American inhabitants would have been incapable of naming plants they had never seen before?
You claim that ancient American inhabitants spoke a site-specific dialect of Hebrew?

Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
I'll quote from the site I linked to earlier:

It gets more complex when you realize that (in other unrelated texts) the Hebrew word for "sheep" has been variously translated as "mountain sheep", "rock-goat", and "antelope", each of which are very different animals. Without knowing exactly which animal the original writer intended, it would be impossible to choose the correct name; indeed, it is entirely possible that the writer meant something else entirely.
Yes, as you've stated that is a possibility. In this case, what do you propose the animal/plant was that was translated into 'horse' or 'wheat'?


Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
I'll also point out that we have found fossils of barley seeds.
Cool! You learn something knew everyday.

Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
Furthermore, there's no reason to believe there would be fossils of horses strewn about.
So these animals have magically dissolving bones?



Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
No.
Then how is it known that it was written originally in Hebrew? Is there evidence beyond the BoM?

Last edited by Aercest: Jan 13th, 2012 at 11:24 PM.
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Heron
Default Jan 14th, 2012, 12:03 AM Old   #72

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Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest View Post
You claim that ancient American inhabitants spoke a site-specific dialect of Hebrew?
Nephi and his family migrated to the Americas from Jerusalem around 600BC, and they spoke Hebrew. Like any isolated group of people, their language evolved over time.

I'm not claiming that Hebrew was the common spoken language of the ancient American inhabitants. More likely, Hebrew was used by the educated, probably the rulers and religious leaders, particularly by those who could read and write. (If you're having a hard time with that idea, think of the way European culture treated Latin for centuries, and especially why they did so.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest;
In this case, what do you propose the animal/plant was that was translated into 'horse' or 'wheat'?
I don't know. It's not really relevant Knowing specifically which species of plant the Nephites used for food would not alter the message of the Book of Mormon in any way whatsoever.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest;
So these animals have magically dissolving bones?
Eh... I didn't say that. (Although I hope you realize that most bones decompose; it takes a specific set of conditions for bones to remain intact over long periods of time.) I'll quote the relevant paragraph from the article I linked earlier:

Quote:
In short, the Book of Mormon claims only that horses were known to some New World peoples before the time of Christ in certain limited regions of the New World. Thus we need not conclude from the text that horses were universally known in the Americas throughout pre-Columbian history. Moreover, the Book of Mormon never says that horses were ridden or used in battle, although some passages suggest that at times they may have been used by the elite as a draft animal
So if, as the Book of Mormon seems to indicate, there was only a small population of horses, why would you expect there to be gobs of horse fossils everywhere? Remember, the Huns almost certainly had hundreds of thousands of horses, yet we haven't found a single usable horse bone from their herds. Do you also claim that the Huns did not have horses, simply because we don't have fossilized remains proving it?

Furthermore, we have found remains of horses that were contemporary with Book of Mormon times, so it's a moot point anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest;
Then how is it known that it was written originally in Hebrew?
The Book of Mormon itself says which language it was written in; specifically, the man who compiled the records into what we now call the Book of Mormon said that he would have preferred to write in Hebrew, but that he wrote in a modified Egyptian script because Hebrew would take up too much space. (I linked to those words earlier, but here's the link again.)

Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest;
Is there evidence beyond the BoM?
To answer this question, yes, there is evidence that the ancient Americans spoke a language at least partially derived from Hebrew; the Uto-Aztecan dialects (used in the southwest US down through southern Mexico) share a striking number of similarities with Hebrew (far more than could be attributed to coincidence).

I'll quote an interesting passage on that subject:

Quote:
[...] Uto-Aztecan "as a language family exhibits more similarities with Hebrew than could be attributed to coincidence; nevertheless, that Hebrew element is obviously mixed with other language elements very different from Hebrew." While no UA [Uto-Aztecan] language shows the same level of derivation from Hebrew as Spanish does from Latin, there are still many traces of similarity suggesting some degree of contact or derivation. Over 1,000 similarities have been derived, enough to merit further investigation. Examples of similarities include the plural suffix "-im" in Northwest Semitic (the branch to which Hebrew belongs), and "-ima" in many UA languages; the passive prefix "ni-" in Northwest Semitic and the prefix "na-" in UA; Northwest Semitic "yasab" as the perfect form of the verb to sit or to dwell, compared to "yasipa" in UA; "adam" meaning man in Hebrew compared to "otam" in UA; Hebrew "katpa" for shoulder, compared to "kotpa" in UA; ya-'amin for "he believes" in Hebrew compared to "yawamin" in a northern UA language; etc.

Last edited by Heron: Jan 14th, 2012 at 12:34 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Aercest
Default Jan 14th, 2012, 03:18 PM Old   #73

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Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
Nephi and his family migrated to the Americas from Jerusalem around 600BC, and they spoke Hebrew. Like any isolated group of people, their language evolved over time.
Woah, woah, woah... A family from the middle east migrated to the Americas? How?

Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
I'm not claiming that Hebrew was the common spoken language of the ancient American inhabitants. More likely, Hebrew was used by the educated, probably the rulers and religious leaders, particularly by those who could read and write. (If you're having a hard time with that idea, think of the way European culture treated Latin for centuries, and especially why they did so.)
A similar occurrence is seen in the relationship between Mandarin and Cantonese.



Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
I don't know. It's not really relevant Knowing specifically which species of plant the Nephites used for food would not alter the message of the Book of Mormon in any way whatsoever.
The message is left unaltered, but its validity can be questioned on the outcome.



Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
Eh... I didn't say that. (Although I hope you realize that most bones decompose; it takes a specific set of conditions for bones to remain intact over long periods of time.) I'll quote the relevant paragraph from the article I linked earlier:
Yes, it does take a specific set of conditions for bones to remain intact. However, we haven't found a single shred of evidence that would lead us to believe that they would be there; no fossils, no outer records of horses...so on. I'm not saying that all of these has to be present, but when there isn't even one piece, it doesn't look to good for me.



Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
So if, as the Book of Mormon seems to indicate, there was only a small population of horses, why would you expect there to be gobs of horse fossils everywhere?
I don't see how the ancient horse/horse-like animals could be contained in their wild state, and why did they die out? They would have flourished as horses did when they were introduced by the Spaniards.

Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
Remember, the Huns almost certainly had hundreds of thousands of horses, yet we haven't found a single usable horse bone from their herds. Do you also claim that the Huns did not have horses, simply because we don't have fossilized remains proving it?
Absolutely not, there are multitudes of accounts of the Huns having horses. Historical records kept by many civilizations dictate that they did, in fact, have horses.


Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
The Book of Mormon itself says which language it was written in; specifically, the man who compiled the records into what we now call the Book of Mormon said that he would have preferred to write in Hebrew, but that he wrote in a modified Egyptian script because Hebrew would take up too much space. (I linked to those words earlier, but here's the link again.)
If we're questioning the logicality and validity of the BoM, we can't use evidence inside it to help it.


Quote: Originally Posted by Heron View Post
To answer this question, yes, there is evidence that the ancient Americans spoke a language at least partially derived from Hebrew; the Uto-Aztecan dialects (used in the southwest US down through southern Mexico) share a striking number of similarities with Hebrew (far more than could be attributed to coincidence).

I'll quote an interesting passage on that subject:
There will be an amount of words of the same meaning that sound the same in languages as different as Hebrew and UA. Those coincidences can be attributed to it's ease of use (pronouns and suffixes) and pure chance(word meanings).
----- Automerged post -----
I suppose you also believe the reference to elephants in North America were also mistranslated from mammoths? No mammoths existed at that time.

Last edited by Aercest: Jan 14th, 2012 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Heron
Default Jan 14th, 2012, 10:15 PM Old   #74

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Quote: Originally Posted by Aercest View Post
Woah, woah, woah... A family from the middle east migrated to the Americas? How?
If you read the first 20 or so chapters of the Book of Mormon, you will find out. (Spoiler: they got here the same way everyone did -- by boat.)

Quote:
However, we haven't found a single shred of evidence that would lead us to believe that they would be there; no fossils, no outer records of horses...so on.
As I've said more than once (and given evidence for via links you haven't followed), yes, we have found remains of horses contemporary with the ancient American inhabitants.

(If you were wondering, there are enough old Native American legends talking about large thick-limbed four-legged animals that don't lay down to sleep and that have a fifth appendage on their head that it's pretty obvious that mammoths and ancient Americans coexisted at some point in the past.)

Quote:
I don't see how the ancient horse/horse-like animals could be contained in their wild state, and why did they die out? They would have flourished as horses did when they were introduced by the Spaniards.
By your logic, America should be filled with animals descended from the small stock brought by the Viking explorers.

Just because Europeans were able to get horses to flourish here after Columbus' time does not mean any horses brought to the Americas centuries earlier must also have flourished. You're making unsubstantiated assumptions.

Quote:
If we're questioning the logicality and validity of the BoM, we can't use evidence inside it to help it.
You asked how I know what language the Book of Mormon was originally written in; I told you how I know. I was not trying to prove its original language to you. (If you are interested, I can give you links to articles discussing the Hebraic language structures found throughout the Book of Mormon that don't make sense if the book were originally written in English.)

Well.

You're not reading the links I'm giving you, so I'm going to stop here. If you can't be bothered to read the links I give you in support of my arguments, then I'm going to assume you're not genuinely interested in this discussion, and that you're really only interested in attempting to "disprove" the Book of Mormon. If you're not willing to change your mind when evidence is presented (or if you're not willing to pay attention to that evidence), then I have no reason to continue this discussion.

If you will state for the record that you're willing to read the links I give you (and then follow through and actually do so), we can continue our discussion.
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FNFAL
Default May 25th, 2012, 09:59 PM Old   #75

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Are you guys still on this nonsense? its been about a year now.

"In my opinion, any future Defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big American land army into Asia or into the Middle East or Africa should 'have his head examined,' as General MacArthur so delicately put it," - Defense Scecretary Robert Gates
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Heron
Default May 25th, 2012, 11:17 PM Old   #76

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You're the one popping in after a long break This thread has been dormant for five months...
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FNFAL
Default May 25th, 2012, 11:55 PM Old   #77

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I have been away that is true, computer science got interesting, by that I mean hard :p, but I am almost done with my CS degree

"In my opinion, any future Defense secretary who advises the president to again send a big American land army into Asia or into the Middle East or Africa should 'have his head examined,' as General MacArthur so delicately put it," - Defense Scecretary Robert Gates
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Vanyar
Default Aug 23rd, 2012, 10:18 PM Old   #78

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Interesting thread.

Religion, itself, cannot be made untrue by science because religion is not based on scientific facts, laws, etc. Gods are practically above definition, which scientific minded people loathe. Religion is based on personal faith and connection with god/s and god/s don't have to prove their existence (the way I have seen it).

Science is based on controlled experiments whereas religion is spontaneous, random, mysterious and very much so uncontrolled. All of the supernatural is like that and that is why science rejects it.

I have also noted that most of these scientific based people are usually very staunch atheists who are usually people who just don't want to bow to anyone, don't want their lives to be easily taken over by otherworldly forces, being dominated or domitable (poetic licence..) in any way. They don't like the idea of fate, of powers they can't control, of things that they can't put a clean and clear label on and put it away for later study. (this is not representative of all scientific minded people, but just an observance I've had).
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LOTRFan
Default Oct 30th, 2012, 01:08 AM Old   #79

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So Vanyar, do you believe in God?

I have been reading this thread and I was curious as to who all believes in God that has posted on this thread.
----- Automerged post -----
Heron
I very much like what you said about God having the Israelite's drive the Canaanites out Canaan because they could not co-exist freely or more specifically because the Canaanites were wicked people that hated God and worshiped Idols.

...God so loved the (whole) world... John 3:16

Last edited by LOTRFan: Oct 30th, 2012 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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