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Balin38
Default Nov 16th, 2009, 03:54 AM Old   #211

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Well when the Bible mentions the Israelites going into battle against various groups, is there actually instances of God telling this third party to shape up? Just seemed like the Israelites were commanded to kill them because they were bad without giving them a chance to reform.

Which points out a problem with your grounding analogy. Being grounded gives you the opportunity to change your behaviour, while the punishment is used to ward you off the bad behaviour.

Threat of extermination might be a deterrent, but I don't see the chance for redemption or any sign of forgiveness there.

I accept your point about God's lesson v Jesus' lesson. Haven't had someone try to put it in such a convincing way. A refreshing change from the metaphor defence.



They heard a great cry that went up from the field before the Gate and rising shrill and piercing into the sky passed, and died away on the wind.


So terrible was the cry that for a moment all stood still, and yet when it had passed, suddenly their hearts were lifted up in such a hope as they had not known since the darkness came out of the East; and it seemed to them that the light grew clear and the sun broke through the clouds.
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The snowking
Default Nov 16th, 2009, 08:13 AM Old   #212

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Balin rread Romans carefully

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Heron
Default Nov 16th, 2009, 03:07 PM Old   #213

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Quote: Originally Posted by Balin38 View Post
Well when the Bible mentions the Israelites going into battle against various groups, is there actually instances of God telling this third party to shape up? Just seemed like the Israelites were commanded to kill them because they were bad without giving them a chance to reform.
I don't know, but the Book of Mormon answers the question:

Quote: Originally Posted by 1 Nephi 17:33-34
33 And now, do ye suppose that the children of this land [Israel], who were in the land of promise, who were driven out by our fathers, do ye suppose that they were righteous? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.
34 Do ye suppose that our fathers would have been more choice than they if they had been righteous? I say unto you, Nay.
In other words, had the Caananites been righteous, they would not have been "more choice" (i.e. God's chosen people) than the Israelites.

I realize the thread's about the Bible, not the Book of Mormon, but I'm just trying to help explain the Bible

(By the way, the Book of Mormon states that one of its purposes is to support the Bible, and that you can't believe the Book of Mormon without also believing the Bible.)

Quote:
Threat of extermination might be a deterrent, but I don't see the chance for redemption or any sign of forgiveness there.
Remember Noah? He spent decades telling people "God's going to flood the earth unless you repent." Same with Sodom and Gumorrah. The Bible is not a complete account of everything God ever said to Mankind; anyone who claims it is hasn't read the Bible, because the Bible itself refers to other books of scripture that we don't have anymore.

The only way to make God's character consistent is to assume that he sent prophets to try to teach people, long before destroying them. We have examples of him doing it in some cases, so it's not a stretch to assume he did it in the other cases.
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Balin38
Default Nov 16th, 2009, 09:28 PM Old   #214

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Fair point, I accept it.



They heard a great cry that went up from the field before the Gate and rising shrill and piercing into the sky passed, and died away on the wind.


So terrible was the cry that for a moment all stood still, and yet when it had passed, suddenly their hearts were lifted up in such a hope as they had not known since the darkness came out of the East; and it seemed to them that the light grew clear and the sun broke through the clouds.
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The snowking
Default Nov 27th, 2009, 10:31 PM Old   #215

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Quote: Originally Posted by Heron
Remember Noah? He spent decades telling people "God's going to flood the earth unless you repent." Same with Sodom and Gumorrah. The Bible is not a complete account of everything God ever said to Mankind; anyone who claims it is hasn't read the Bible, because the Bible itself refers to other books of scripture that we don't have anymore.

The only way to make God's character consistent is to assume that he sent prophets to try to teach people, long before destroying them. We have examples of him doing it in some cases, so it's not a stretch to assume he did it in the other cases.
Where in the bible does it reference other scriptures? Can I have verses?

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Heron
Default Nov 27th, 2009, 10:53 PM Old   #216

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I was going to re-type this, but I'll just copy and paste it (Edit: added some formatting):

The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they are considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following:
- book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14);
- book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18);
- book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41);
- book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29);
- book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29);
- book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29);
- prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29);
- visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22);
- book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15);
- book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34);
- sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19);
- an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9);
- possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3);
- an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16);
- and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14).

To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24: 7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10: 25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26: 22).
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The snowking
Default Nov 29th, 2009, 06:32 PM Old   #217

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Ok thankyou.

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Edheldae
Default Nov 29th, 2009, 11:45 PM Old   #218

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Not to quibble but I don't think that reference to other writing makes the referred to writing on par with the text making the reference. Its kinda like saying that an Encyclopedia Britannica article references some WWI private's journal for part of an entry, therefore that private's journal is equivalent to an encyclopedia article on that topic.

Just because the Bible mentions it does not make it scripture. The canonization process (for good or ill) is pretty complex. The Bible also refers to court records, poetry, and law codes. Those are not necessarily "inspired" writings. Though that is a loaded term that could use some unpacking.

I'm curious what you mean by that phrase?
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Heron
Default Nov 30th, 2009, 12:33 PM Old   #219

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Merely referring to other texts is not sufficient to make them "on par" with existing Biblical texts, no; however, the references in question are texts referred to in such a way that it's clear that the writers of the reference considered them to be inspired writings. If you have any doubts, I'd suggest you read the references I listed.

When I say "inspired" writings, I mean text that God directed a prophet to write.
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Edheldae
Default Dec 4th, 2009, 02:16 AM Old   #220

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That's a great list of references and yes, I read them. What's more I'm familiar with the relevant points. I'm not an expert by any stretch but I read a lot.

Have you considered different English translations of those verses?

Divinely inspired scripture, God speaking and a prophet writing, or some such, is a relatively recently expounded Evangelical Christian position building on Reformation theology - mostly Calvin's. So however you read the reference to other writings, I don't think the translated ancient Hebrew texts included in modern Bibles can, in and of themselves alone, be taken as proof positive the missing book is scripture.

For example take your 1 Kings 11:41 text:
"And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the abook of the acts of Solomon?"

is translated by the NIV as
"And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?"

or in Young's Literal Translations as
"And the rest of the matters of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written on the book of the matters of Solomon?"

or in the New American Standard as
"Now the rest of the acts of Solomon and whatever he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?"

As a native English speaker and student of history, I would take those as a reference to a historical record, possibly created by the government of the day, that does not need to be included in the scripture. The scripture of 1 Kings, itself a distilled history of the kings of Isreal/Judea, was written by some level of religiously learned people to make a point about the historical events of their day, and they reference their source material. Sort of like a political commentator referencing a new law, or a newsman referencing a political speech.

They are possibly two different kinds of texts. That's all I'm saying. Its not crystal clear. And personally I think God intended it to be a bit murky. That's why we need faith.

So just be thoughtful about what your English translation of a translation might mean before you ascribe uncertain value to specific English word choices.
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Heron
Default Dec 4th, 2009, 03:07 AM Old   #221

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Yes, I'm aware that there are different translations. Who's to say which are correct? I think the Bible can be of help:

Quote: Originally Posted by James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
We are explicitly told by scripture that we can ask God (i.e. through prayer) if we lack wisdom (i.e. what does verse X mean?), and "it shall be given [us]". That's a promise. I know it's true; it has proven true for me many times.

The important points here are that a) the Bible is not a complete record of God's dealings with mankind, b) the Bible does not claim to be a complete record of God's dealings with mankind, and c) God can (and does!) give us new information through revelation.
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Eomer the Young
Default Jul 14th, 2010, 12:23 PM Old   #222

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The bible should not be used for historical references or any type of meaningful scientific observations, as this book was written at least 2,000 years ago and any type of information as stated above would be better found in modern day historical and scientific literature.

As far as life lessons and morality goes, that's an entirely different subject as the bible directly contradicts itself through the new and old testaments.

Furthermore, it contains no proof that it is actually the word of god. So remember you're reading the moralities of men who lived thousands of years ago, when the social structure of society was much different from today.

Look for your friends, but do not trust to hope. It has forsaken these lands.
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The snowking
Default Jul 14th, 2010, 12:44 PM Old   #223

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This thread is 6 months old.

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Arvedui
Default Jul 14th, 2010, 01:04 PM Old   #224
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